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weltmeister

I'm really unhappy with how Glypher is determining the cost of inks. I had set it up for my way of doing things (using "Method A" below), but I've come to find out that other people do things differently. With this in mind, I'd like to improve the way Glypher works.

I'd like to get some feedback on how others are getting their inks for glyphs. The methods I can think of are:

A. Buy only Northrend herbs, mill them, make Ink of the Sea, and use the ink trader in Dalaran to get whatever inks are needed.
B. Buy herbs as needed for specific inks. Mill and make ink.
BB. Same as above but using the InscriptionMats searcher.
C. Buy pigments. Make ink.
D. Buy ink.
E. Farm herbs. Mill and make ink.

Please let me know how you're getting your inks for glyphs, by choosing the methods from the list above or describing a different method.

Also, as a cost-offset, there are several ways, if you're using Method A, to reduce or eliminate your ink cost by selling Snowfall Inks or items crafted from them. I use primarily "Method 1" below.

1. Sell the Snowfall Ink to others
2. Craft and sell Runescrolls of Fortitude
3. Craft and sell Darkmoon Cards of the North
4. Craft and sell off-hands

If you're using any of these methods, please let me know which one(s), or any other method you might be using.

I would also any ideas you have on how we might be able to cost out the inks without tons of user configuration.

I do have one idea for costing out inks without much configuration, involving looking at the BeanCounter data for herbs, pigments, and inks, and making a calculation based upon that data, but I can see a conflict where you might be buying herbs for alchemy that are millable but much higher priced than the ones you buy for inscription.

Or, for sake of simplicity, should Glypher's current "price of single Northrend herb" just be changed to "price basis for one ink, set to 0 to use market value"? (On my server inks, when available, are over priced.)

pfenrir

I pretty much buy only Adder's Tongue and Icethorn, mill and use the ink trader in Dalaran. I tend to sell the Snowfall Ink, but will make cards on occasion if I can find some cheap eternal life.

weltmeister

Posted By: pfenrir
I pretty much buy only Adder's Tongue and Icethorn, mill and use the ink trader in Dalaran. I tend to sell the Snowfall Ink, but will make cards on occasion if I can find some cheap eternal life.

Thank you pfenrir. I'm trying to get as much input as possible into what people are really doing, so the information you provided is valuable. That's pretty much along the lines of how I work.

In your case, would you prefer to have the price determined based upon a price you enter for Adder's Tongue/Icethorn/Lichbloom? Or would you prefer to enter a straight cost of Ink of the Sea? Or something else? (Maybe BeanCounter data on the recent purchases of these herbs?)

I'm trying to figure out the best way to flexibly-yet-accurately determine the cost of ink.

Thanks again. :)

pfenrir

Posted By: weltmeister

In your case, would you prefer to have the price determined based upon a price you enter for Adder's Tongue/Icethorn/Lichbloom? Or would you prefer to enter a straight cost of Ink of the Sea? Or something else? (Maybe BeanCounter data on the recent purchases of these herbs?)

I'm thinking that I'd probably prefer to just enter a price for the herbs. I know what I'm willing to pay for them so that seems to be easiest for me. I wouldn't mind a BeanCounter tie in, but BC doesn't always catch everything so I'd worry that the data wasn't as accurate as I'd like it to be.

Apaseall

For novice scribes like myself (low scribe skill and not used to scribing for sale) I would be looking at prices to purchase herbs since I cannot get access to the ink trader (medium level toon).

weltmeister

I've been thinking about how to handle this. These are some random notes, just to get some of my ideas recorded.

Those that don't use the ink trader might buy herbs, pigments, or inks; they may purchase these from the AH or from other players directly. Beancounter data works for the AH purchases, but obviously isn't going to work for direct player purchases.

Ink traders may purchase herbs or pigments for Inks of the Sea, or the inks themselves, from the AH or from other players directly. Same as above.

The cost of ink could be determined by the last X days' worth of herb/pigment/ink purchases. For non-ink-traders, there would be a correlation between the herbs/pigments and inks for pricing purposes. For ink-traders it would only count the NR herbs, although this could be skewed if you buy a lot of Icethorn and Lichbloom for making flasks. This wouldn't account for purchases directly from other players.

The cost of ink could also be determined by the market value of herbs/pigments/inks, but I personally almost never buy herbs at above 80% of market value.

For ink traders, it's fairly easy to enter a ceiling price for what you normally pay for herbs. For non-ink-traders is it also easy to do the same for herbs/pigments/inks?

How should the cost offset of Snowfall Ink be handled? On my server, I tend to sell all of my Snowfall Inks, Runescrolls, or Darkmoon Cards at a price where the Snowfall Inks at least pay for my herbs (or often at a profit to the point where my Ink of the Sea has no real cost). Currently, I reduce my herb cost in Glypher to nearly zero.

Apaseall

Forgive me if this is a noob question but ... inks - @ the Ah can be bought as inks, pigments, herbs yes.
Does glypher perform any tests to see which is most profitable to use ?
Say for glyph x you need ink y. Ink y has a price @ Ah. Ink y can be made from pigment z again with price @ Ah. Pigment z can be made from milling herb w once more with price @ Ah.
Does glypher check to see if ink or pigment or herb is the most profitable raw material ?

This agin is for a medium skilled toon who most likey won't have access to northrend at all.

I like the idea of using recent data - stats. I personaly might want to see the average price people have bought ink, pigment or herbs @ from the Ah over the last 3 days. I just like that stat :)

For ink traders (no idea what that means) some output showing what prices for ink, pigment or herbs are being used for profit calculations might be helpful.
That way when someone says 'WTS herb w @ price u' the person could glance over the output and decied if they should ignore the seller or haggle with them.

An idea just came to me. When the final profit figure is displayed prehaps it could be displayed as 4 values, i.e. instead of 2g10s12c show 2.50.12/2.10.12/2.90.12/1.19.12 (ink/pigment/herb/price).
In the example I would be tempted to make the glyph from herbs as that shows the most profit but only if the herbs can be sourced @ 1.19.12 or less.

Guess options here would be needed to allow folks to see what they personally find useful.

A slightly different question:
Why is the glypher module present in the configuration panel ?
Searchers have their own tab, i.e. search for vendor, resale, DE etc.
Would not moveing the glypher module to the searcher or giving it its own tab (optional) provide more space?

weltmeister

Posted By: Apaseall
Does glypher perform any tests to see which is most profitable to use ?

Glypher doesn't do this, but there is a searcher called InscriptionMats which does. (I haven't used it, but I think that's what it does from what I've read.)

Posted By: Apaseall
For ink traders (no idea what that means)

There's an ink trader (vendor) in Dalaran who will trade Ink of the Sea for any of the common lower inks on a 1:1 basis, or for Snowfall Ink on a 10 Ink of the Sea to 1 Snowfall Ink basis.

Generally if you're using the ink trader, you're going to mostly be buying Adder's Tongue, Lichbloom, and Icethorn at a set desired price, and the other NR herbs at about 35-50% less, and not dealing with the various lower herbs, unless they're much cheaper and you're energetic. I fall into the non-energetic category. Plus if Snowfall Ink sells well on your server (either as straight ink, or in any of the things you can craft from it), the sales of Snowfall Ink can entirely offset the cost of the herbs, which I doubt is the case with the lower uncommon inks.

Posted By: Apaseall
An idea just came to me. When the final profit figure is displayed prehaps it could be displayed as 4 values, i.e. instead of 2g10s12c show 2.50.12/2.10.12/2.90.12/1.19.12 (ink/pigment/herb/price).

I like this idea, but I think InscriptionMats already does this. Maybe MattBnr can chime in on it as I think he uses it.

Posted By: Apaseall
Why is the glypher module present in the configuration panel ?

It's in the Util section of Auctioneer because it's a utility. While it would have more space for configuration by having it's own tab, most of the current configuration that you have to scroll down for is pretty much set-and-forget. (In my day-to-day use, I rarely change any of the configuration at all.)

Apaseall

searchui is a utility - auc-util-searchui. If you or others felt like having more space to play with would be a good idea you could consider the options given by searchui in terms of new tabs etc.
I mention it because I use the searchui all the time. Having to break out of that and enter the configuration then click the glypher module seems wierd.
I'm at the Ah to make money. So I use the searchui part. Use the many searchers available. Surely searching for profitable glyphs is a search in itself.
It would save me time and clicks if it was just part of the searchui searchers.
Hmm I'm being a big jumpy around here. I'll try again.
I visit the Ah to trade. I use the searchui searches like DE, vendor and snatch. If I wanted to get into the glyph business I would be wanting to see what is presently profitable to make.
I would be doing the same thing day in day out. Ok maybe I would not want to check the glyphs everyday but you get the idea I think.

Another way of looking at it is like this. The configure part of auc-adv is a visit once thing. You go there, set stuff up and hopefully never go there again.
None of the other things in the configure menu do anything whilst you are at them. They change settings that you see the effect of in other parts of auc-adv.

However the setting in searchui are something you might want to go back to periodically - possibly.
You expect to see something there and then in the searchui part.

Sorry I'm not beening very clear. I hope you can find my point in here somewhere. Having an off day.

weltmeister

Posted By: Apaseall
searchui is a utility - auc-util-searchui

My bad...I had just gotten in from a long trip to town.

Posted By: Apaseall
Having an off day.

My off day first thing this morning.

I'll see what can be done, and maybe get a better understanding why it's where it is and if it can be moved into it's own tab (probably not within SearchUI because it doesn't technically hook into SearchUI), or at the very least maybe I can work up a button to go on the auction UI frame for quicker access to Glypher. (You can access it on the slidebar...)

Sorry for being short on words, it's raid night.

Apaseall

Great news. I don't use the slidebar so don't make it load. All I do with the banker toon is run between the Ah and mailbox.
I know you say that glypher does not hook into searchui. I think I get what you mean by that. However even though it does not hook into it my feeling is that glypher is performing a search.
On that feeling I would be tempted to see if glypher would sit happily in the searchui along with all the other searchers there.
Failing that an option to have a tab would be handy for me and I hope others.

I'm discussing this for two reasons. One to cut down on the mouse movements and clicks to access glypher. Two to allow more room for display of interesting figures (prices including inks/pigments/herbs etc).

I am very happy to see this module being developed. Have you thought about if the algorithms can be used for other professions than inscription?

MattBnr

http://forums.norganna.org/discussion/10510/new-searcher-millingmats/#Item_6

Here is the inscriptionmats searcher. Once installed it will add a searcher to the searchui page and it searches either for herbs, or inks. I'm not sure exactly how it determines the most profitable. I think the original dev has abandoned it.

weltmeister

Posted By: Apaseall
Have you thought about if the algorithms can be used for other professions than inscription?

Glypher is pretty much inscription-specific, leaning heavily towards hard-core glyph industrialists.

I'll take a look later today at what I can do to make Glypher more easily accessed when not using the SlideBar.

weltmeister

Posted By: weltmeister
I'll take a look later today at what I can do to make Glypher more easily accessed when not using the SlideBar.

revision 4513 adds a slash command for Glypher to show/hide the glypher UI:

/auc util glypher show

This way you can macro it an put it in an action bar. (I know this might not be the best solution, but it's the only solution that is likely to happen any time in the near future.)

Apaseall

Thanks weltmseister much appreciated.
The inscription mats searcher sounds interesting.
Prehaps these two modules could work well together ?

MattBnr

They do work very well together. I keep trying to get welt to take it over. hee i would but i know next to nothing about coding.

Apaseall

So the only change really is to tell searchui about the new searcher ?
Think I'll try it out now. Thanks

-- edit --
The links in the other thread are giving me 404 errors.
Does that mean I cannot download the searcher ?
Maybe you could post the code into pastey and give us a link in this thread ?
The edited file would be handy too.

MattBnr

Here is the direct download from github for inscriptionmats searcher http://github.com/kiyose/Auc-Advanced-InscriptionMats/archives/master

As far as the edited file i have posted a example on the other thread here http://forums.norganna.org/discussion/10510/new-searcher-millingmats/#Item_6

If you need anything else let me know. Ill see what i can do.

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