Where does the Market Price come from, and also seen value ?
  • I just cleared my data for the AH using the command /auc cleardata ALL
    I then did a scan of the AH and looked at Lean Shank.

    It states :
    Market Price :(seen 5) 9g 68s 53c

    This is wrong. There are 52 auctions up with prices varying from 2g 21s 75c -> 3g 30s Buy Out

    Do I need to do more than just use that command for it to actually clear the data ?

    What is the seen value really showing me ? Clearly I expected it to show me how many auctions it had seen. But this is obviously not the case.

    TIA,
    xerty
  • 1) for market price - have you ever seen (remotely) accurate statistics calculated from just ONE sample? (you ran a single scan)

    2) local-realm statistics can easily be poisoned by price manipulation

    3) "Seen" is the number of auctions seen, but Blizzard is notorious these days for not always returning full AH data during a GetAll scan - it pretty much never does anymore. On my realm we usually have 30K+ items listed in AH and each GetAll scan regularly misses more than 10k items.

    here's the output from my latest GetAll scan from 5 min ago - look at the number of incomplete items

    image


    4) please read
    http://forums.norganna.org/index.php?p=/discussion/296/how-can-we-counter-the-poisoning
    (but replace wowuction with The Undermine Journal - wowuction is no longer usable)

  • Firstly A_Tom, thank you for taking the time to respond to my query.
    Secondly. Could you please take a minute to consider your responses. They are coming over as pretty harsh and I'm sure you did not mean them too ;-)
    Thirdly. I've been using Auctioneer for a long time. Blimey. I just checked and I've been on this forum for 9 years ?!? How time flies.

    1) for market price - have you ever seen (remotely) accurate statistics calculated from just ONE sample? (you ran a single scan)
    Why would the number of samples make any difference apart from long term accuracy ? If I have a sample of ten prices. I would expect the stats to be accurately reflected. Auctioneer should only be using data that it is being supplied with from the AH scans. Not coming up with widely differing stats that makes the addon of no use.
    If I see an item up at 2 prices, one 2234g 84s 90c, and the other 2355g 84s 90c and Auctioneer is telling me the Market Value is 5039g 89s 83c. Do you think I am willing to believe Auctioneer ?

    2) local-realm statistics can easily be poisoned by price manipulation
    So true.

    3) "Seen" is the number of auctions seen, but Blizzard is notorious these days for not always returning full AH data during a GetAll scan - it pretty much never does anymore. On my realm we usually have 30K+ items listed in AH and each GetAll scan regularly misses more than 10k items.
    I understand that the GetAll scan will not always get the full AH. I am willing to accept that for the speed of the scan.
    My AH is regularly 40k+ and I don't remember ever noticing missed items. Maybe there is an option for it and it's not turned on at my end ?

    Here is the scan results after a cleardata :
    image
    This also makes me wonder if the cleardata command has really worked as it states there are 40900 items in the DB at start. Or does it mean the blizzard DB ?
  • sorry if i sounded harsh - was not my intention.

    for 1) i don't usually consider Market Price relevant if it's calculated for a limited number of time interval samples... i would consider it across at least 4 days of data (at least 2 maximum-duration posting periods)... any less than that and its not accurate enough for my taste because it can be extremely easily influenced by market price pushers.

    Some people even list an item for 24/48h but keep them listed for less than 30 minutes to 2 hours sometimes and then cancel it... just to poison the market statistics.

    When an auction ends before term then Auctioneer cannot tell if an item was bought (at the high inflated price) or the auction was cancelled early... so i think it assumes it actually sold at the inflated price.. and probably this is where your inflated Market Price is coming from... someone is probably posting and cancelling auctions at high prices just to poison other people's statistics.

    in your data above you have:
    6366 items removed but only 2090 of these were past expiry time... so i guess the difference between these numbers is either items that were actually sold or items that were cancelled and then relisted.
  • No worries. Text can sometimes come over more harshly than we intended ;-)

    I agree that the Market Price will get more accurate as time goes on, but it should also be accurate in a small window. The chances of that item being poisoned within 30 seconds is very unlikely. The scan only takes about that long. Though I did pick an item that also did not show any seen data, so that may be throwing it too I guess.

    I've been having a lot of issues with some items seeming to be poisoned, yet I never see them on the AH. Also The Undermine Journal never shows these variations. Maybe they remove the poisoned ones somehow.

    Can you confirm that the command I am using is the way to remove the data : /auc cleardata ALL

    in your data above you have:
    6366 items removed but only 2090 of these were past expiry time... so i guess the difference between these numbers is either items that were actually sold or items that were cancelled and then relisted.

    Since that was the first scan after doing a clear, I can only surmise that they wer sold or removed within that 19 second window.
  • /auc cleardata ALL
    looks right to me but for deleting the data i just logout to character select screen and delete the database files directly:

    SavedVariables\Auc-ScanData.lua - for the scan data
    SavedVariables\BeanCounter.lua - for the BeanCounter history
    SavedVariables\!Swatter.lua - for the old error logs

    make sure you delete these only under SavedVariables (WTF\Account\_number_here_\SavedVariables\) and NOT the similarly-named files under Interface\Addons.

    p.s. the statistics modules have different auc-* files to save statistics under SavedVariables... you might want to also delete any Auc-Stat-* files from there too.
  • Thanks. Was thinking about clearing these, but did not want to delete the wrong ones ;-)
  • btw, it doesn't look that was the first scan after clear because the text says it already had some data at start ("40900 items in DB at start"), so "6366 items removed but only 2090 of these were past expiry time" is the difference between the previous scan and the current scan.

    If you really intended it to be the first scan then it means you hadn't cleaned up properly the data. Please try the file delete method from SavedVariables and delete SavedVariables\Auc-ScanData.lua and all statistics data files, SavedVariables\Auc-Stat-*.lua - Make sure you're logged out of the game when you clear the files.


    the first scan after clear should say it has 0 items at start, like this:

    image

  • also see Kinesia's post:

    http://forums.norganna.org/index.php?p=/discussion/489/beancounter-and-battlepets#Item_15

    seems that Simple Stats currently has a bug with inflating Market Price...
    i think i was not affected by it simply because i don't use Simple Stats - i use only TUJ stats.
  • /auc cleardata ALL clears most of the Stat modules (some don't support it, e.g. TUJ where the data can't be cleared anyway). It clears price data plus some related data such as seen counts.

    The ScanData image holds a record of the auctions you've seen, and is not cleared by the above command. Relevant to this discussion:
    (1) it is used to ensure that you don't record stats for an auction more than once, so because it wasn't cleared at first, your stat modules only recorded new auctions.
    (2) it is used for "items in DB" the Post Scan Summary
    The slash command to clear it is:
    /auc clearscan ALL

    Though deleting the relevant files is another way of doing it :)


    Seen counts are stored in the various Stat modules - the Seen Count returned by MarketValue is the max from all the Stat modules.
    Unfortunately different Stat modules give different meanings to seen count (number of items, number of auctions, or some other counts), so it's not a particularly useful value - just tells you if you've seen "a few" or "lots".
    Some time ago I did ask how people thought the "Seen Count" should really be defined, but didn't get much response.


    In those Post Scan Summaries the "Unresolved entries" look to be a big problem - 11k out of 37k is far worse than I've been experiencing.


    Also if Stat-Simple is causing problems it needs to be looked into. It was notorious for getting poisoned immediately after a reset, and for returning unreasonably low stddevs (which mess up MarketPrice). The code was changed to try to mitigate these faults, but it may not have been enough?
  • I would recommend most people disable Stat-Simple at the moment until we investigate further. Even though it might be ok for _most_ items there is the definite possibility of poison data for a few items. I have seen this myself for certain. The other stats seem to be much safer. With Stat-Simple disabled my market price is fairly close to what TUJ reports which is a useful comparison. (One reason to continue having Market Price is that there are still many items that aren't in the TUJ database, I have no idea why. And it's also poor practise for us to be reliant on an external app. I do use it though and appreciate not scanning so much.)
  • While Simple is the biggest offender... I still have a _few_ items that are overinflated, but I can't isolate which stat is the problem.
    Does anyone have issues with particular stats that they have good examples of?
  • Ok, for me Starlight Rosedust StdDev is poisoned as well... I suspect it was right initially, but the price has now dropped and some of the stats don't deal well with that. I'm not sure what we can do, though, to differentiate with good deals vs a legit drop in price...
    Weirdly Simple has _no_ value for it, I haven't seen that often.

    Histogram seems reasonably good for most things, I have yet to see many errors there.
  • Thanks all for the feedback. Interesting reading :-)
  • Sorry for the late response. Been interesting reading the replies. Thanks :-)
  • The biggest problem is stuff that has no good data... The "Filters" are to stop bad numbers from getting in, but if the stats already started with too high values then the filter thinks that is normal, it's hard to work out any way to deal with that...
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